Posts by Sea Breeze

46

Books I read when I deprogrammed

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

blondie suggested someone start a thread with a list of books that are valuable to read when exiting the jws.. i will start.. i left the jws way back in the early 70s and didn't actually deprogram until into the 80s.. one of the first books i read was "the orwellian world of jehovah's witnesses" by gary and heather botting.

canadian exjws from calagary.

an excellent book and one that still resonates with young people today.

Sea Breeze

Read the NT. It will lead anyone away from theWT.

24

New Discovery at Mt. Ebal: the earliest historical instance of the name of God

by Terry in

.

https://youtu.be/guzbxzdpflo.

Sea Breeze

I think the real significance is the discovery of the altar itself. It bears witness to the accuracy of the biblical record of the EXODUS.

Duet. 27:

Therefore it shall be, when you have crossed over the Jordan, that on Mount Ebal you shall set up these stones, which I command you today, and you shall whitewash them with lime. 5 And there you shall build an altar to the Lord your God, an altar of stones; you shall not use an iron tool on them. 6 You shall build with whole stones the altar of the Lord your God, and offer burnt offerings on it to the Lord your God. 7 You shall offer peace offerings, and shall eat there, and rejoice before the Lord your God. 8 And you shall write very plainly on the stones all the words of this law.”

Then Joshua built an altar unto the LORD God of Israel in mount Ebal - Joshua 8: 30

Dr. Ken Johnson has a good podcast on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDmah4Zkwkc&ab_channel=KenJohnson

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Sea Breeze

My, I haven't heard that much baloney is quite some time .

Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD – A creepy, dishonest hypocrite

You Wrote:

It looks like there were at least 2 sects of Christianity existing during the time of Paul writing the Epistles.

Not really. While some license was taken with allegory from the Christian school in Alexandria, orthodoxy prevailed. But, the Alexandrian stream of thought and manuscripts did eventually find permanent lodging in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Christian school in Antioch (and it's descendants in the Eastern Byzantium tradition as well as indigenous European Christians) on the other hand, tended to stick with the plain literal reading of scripture. We see similar things today. Amillenialists are not just Catholic. About one third of evangelicals view the 1000 yr. Kingdom of Christ as allegorical.

But, the essentials of salvation are all agreed upon by evangelicals - by grace, through faith.

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Sea Breeze

Where is Philo?

His name is Philo of Alexandria (Egypt). That's where he lived. A long way from Jerusalem. Wouldn't closer Primary and Secondary sources not known for embellished spiritualizations, and sophistry be better sources?

Why choose this guy unless it is to support a bias?

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Sea Breeze

[Tacitus wrote] at a time when Christians themselves had come to believe that Jesus had suffered under Pilate.

This statement has as an assumption that belief, (and not eye-witness testimony) was the source of the point that Pilate ordered Jesus whipping and crucifixion). Why is he poisoning the well right out of the gate like this before he offers any reasoning? Seems pretty biased from the get go.

There are three reasons for holding that Tacitus is here simply repeating what Christians had told him. First, he gives Pilate a title, procurator [without saying procurator of what! FRZ], which was current only from the second half of the first century. Had he consulted archives which recorded earlier events, he would surely have found Pilate there designated by his correct title, prefect.

This reasoning seems particularly deceptive. There is no evidence of any procurator (tax-collector) governing any province, without also holding the office of prefect or its equivalent. There are examples of governors being referred to as only prefect or procurator but in reality scholars know they were both.

Second, Tacitus does not name the executed man Jesus, but uses the title Christ (Messiah) as if it were
a proper name. But he could hardly have found in archives a statement such as “the Messiah was executed
this morning.”

By the Time Tacitus wrote this around 100 AD, the group of Jesus' followers had long been called a derogatory name "Christians" for decades. It meant "little christs".

Although it started out as a derogatory term, the name stuck. So, by the time Tacitus wrote his history, using the word "Christus" it would have definitely been reasonable for him to use this term either as a passive polemic, description of the leader of the christians, or both.

Third, hostile to Christianity as he was,
he was surely glad to accept from Christians their own view that Christianity was of recent origin, since the Roman authorities were prepared to tolerate
only ancient cults. - G.A. Wells The Historical Evidence for Jesus; p.16

Huh? I thought he was arguing that Christians were an unreliable source. Now, all the sudden they are reliable in stating that their belief was recent (which corresponds to the Resurrection event that Christians maintained was the basis for their faith)

I find this guy's reasons for rejecting Tacitus to be pretty lame.

By the way, Josephus was a Roman sympathizer and opportunist and likely not a pharisee.

"he does not feature the Pharisees in any of his narratives: they hardly figure in his earliest work (the Judean War), becoming significant players only in latter third of the Judean Antiquities-Life, written in the mid-90s; but then they disappear again from his last and most vigorous defense of Judaism.

More importantly, what he writes about Judaism and its laws (or "constitution"), which is a lot, shows no evidence of any Pharisaic bias. We might have suspected Pharisaic influences if he had embraced the special "tradition of the fathers" accepted by Pharisees, for example, or clearly described resurrection from the dead.

But he does not. In fact, a number of his passages are openly hostile toward the Pharisees."

Passive polemics were common in ancient literature, kinda like Pilate mockingly posting a sign above Jesus' head "King of the Jews" . Pilate didn't really believe he was a King, at least not one to ever worry about.

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Sea Breeze

Philo is an interesting character. He was a fore-runner of Fred Franz with all his type and anti-type sophistry.

Jerome wrote this about him:

Concerning this man the following statement is in circulation among the Greeks: h Platwn filwnizei h, filwn platonizei (either Plato philonizes or Philo platonizes), that is to say, either Plato follows Philo, or Philo follows Plato, so great is the similarity of thought and style.

Philo used allegory to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. His method followed the practices of both Pharisaic Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. "The sophists of literalness," as he calls them, "opened their eyes superciliously" when he explained to them the marvels of his exegesis. In other words, those who simply read the bible literally were made to realize just how little they knew once Philo expounded on his allegorical (spiritual) interpretations. Sound familiar? This is exactly what the Watchtower did to us, especially with all of Franz' writings. They allegorize scriptures that don't fit the WT narrative, or use this device when introducing new concepts. It is a very ancient technique.

The Essenes (keepers of thousands of dead-sea scrolls) were biblical literalists as were Antioch Christian believers (where the term "Christians" was first applied)

Philo wrote extensively on the first 5 books of the OT and found allegory in most every passage. He was someone you could listen to for hours and shoot the bull with. He regarded the physical nature of man as something defective and as an obstacle to his development that can never be fully surmounted, but still as something indispensable in view of the nature of his being. Philo is not entirely certain whether the body in itself or merely in its preponderance over the spirit is evil. But the body in any case is a source of danger. His concept of the Logos as God's creative principle apparently influenced early Christology. To him Logos was God's "blueprint for the world", a governing plan.

This is similar to the heretical movement called Christ Consciousness that we see bantered around by pseudo-intellectuals today.

I know there is some reason to believe that Philo may have met the Apostle Mark. But, I never heard that he may have met Jesus. Can you expand on this statement: "He was in the same room as Jesus in the gospels."

35

Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known in

in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

Sea Breeze

The video starts off doubting Jesus even existed. That's a bias red-flag right off the bat. No serious scholar claims this.

Consider Alexander the Great (tutrored by Aristotle). The earliest report of him is from 330 BC, plus 300 years after his death. Plutarch is considered the best source for him and he wrote over 400 years after Alexander died.

There doesn't seem to be much controversy about Alexander the Great, his famed Phalanx war techniques nor about how he died.

So how do historians determine the likelihood of historicity?

* Primary Sources - These are documents written in the period under examination. For ancient history, primary sources are very rare.

* Secondary Sources - Documents written after the period being researched. Usually more plentiful but theoretically less reliable

* Eye-Witness Testimony – Testimony from firsthand witnesses to an event. (Especially if there is a lack of rebuttal from the same area and time frame)

* Embarrassing Testimony – Ex. A Pastor who told his congregation that he was too busy to visit a sick person last week. Then, later in the talk he let it slip that he had been playing golf on multiple occasions that week. Such a statement is embarrassing therefore, increases the reliability that such a statement was true.

* Enemy Attestation - Gary Habermas and Michael Licona note that “If testimony affirming an event or saying is given by a source who does not sympathize with the person, message, or cause that profits from the account, we have an indication of authenticity.”

So, if a person’s mother said that her child had integrity, one could claim the mother spoke out of bias for her child. But if a person’s enemy said something like - this person is an idiot, I don’t like him, but he’s not a liar. The claim of integrity would hold greater weight.

There are at least 6 sources for Jesus that qualify as enemy attestation:

1. Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15.44), c. 100AD.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

2. Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18.3), c. 90AD.

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man...a doer of wonderful works—a teacher. when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

3. Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), c. 220AD but reports an earlier tradition.

They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover....he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God.

4. Mara Bar-Serapion, c. 73-100AD (Syrian and Stoic philosopher)

What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.

5. Thallus (from Julius Africanus fragment), c. 52AD

Thallus “wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time…Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun—unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died).”

6. Acts of Pilate (from Justin Martyr, First Apology 35), Justin wrote in the mid 2nd century but records a text from the first-century AD.

And the expression, ‘They pierced my hands and my feet,’ was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

7. I might also add the Nazareth Inscription (middle 1st Century) from Caesar which mentions the death penalty for anyone found moving sepulcher-sealing stones and stealing the body.
This inscription was found in Nazareth.

Now, where have we heard an account about a man from Nazareth who was placed in a tomb that was sealed with a big roll stone that was later found to be empty? Keep in mind that tomb raiders don't steal dead bodies... just the valuables that are frequently buried with them, making this imperial edict even more ridiculous if is wasn't about Jesus.

So, just from enemy attestation sources, (not counting the Nazareth inscription) the historian can know the following:

1) Jesus existed;

2) Jesus was a teacher from Judea;

3) Jesus was thought to have been wise;

4) Jesus performed miracles, although attributed to sorcery by his adversaries;

5) Jesus was crucified at the command of Pontius Pilate;

6) Darkness surrounded the area at Jesus’ crucifixion;

7) Jesus was crucified around the time of the Passover;

8) One can assume from the information given that Jesus was buried;

9) Jesus was believed to have been resurrected;

10) and Jesus’ followers accepted suffering and death while still holding on to the belief of Jesus’ resurrection.

From enemy attestation alone, one can know a great deal about the fundamentals of Jesus’ life.

There are many other guides and lines of reasoning that historians use to establish the historicity of events. This is but a very small sampling

16

Article: Jehovah's Witnesses elders guilty of failure to report sexual abuse of 6-year-old girl

by AndersonsInfo in

mchenry county, woodstock, il .

northwest herald, shaw local news.

breaking news - read below full article - (article was blocked unless the reader has a subscription.

Sea Breeze

What a tragedy!

23

Do you remember GRACE GOUGH?

by LullingtonRd in

hello, i am grace gough's granddaughter:.

i have started a blog that begins at the beginning and this is with grace.

follow along as i dive into her life - and please do reach out if you have any stories to share with me that i can add to my blog.. you can find the blog here:.

Sea Breeze

I remember her. Fine lady.

12

World War 3

by Reservations in

jw
friends

i’m calling it folks, world war 3 looks like it’s a done deal.. belarus has entered ukraine, and nato is involved heavily, just not “boots on the ground”.. will there be a nuclear exchange?

i would have said no 5 days ago, now i’m not so sure.. how will this effect wt?

probably more of the same fear mongering..

Sea Breeze

It doesn't have to be a done deal (WW III). The liberal utopian states want to stir the conflict because the globalists (their financiers) always end up with more power with each state of emergency. They live by: "never let a good disaster go to waste" .

The dictator's do not need the liberal media media to cover for them with their deceptions because they already have made an end run around their own elections. But, unlike the globalists and their liberal lackeys, they are against a new world order where national boundaries (physical and societal) are essentially meaningless.

This puts conservatives in the unusual position of siding with dictators who value nationalism, even if they are ruthless. The choice? Fake Democracy by the dictators vs., fake democracy as explained by the MSM. The dictators don't need it are not buying it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY5pMXGorBM&ab_channel=ColDouglasMacgregorClips